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Thursday, October 6, 2011

400-408 – Calls – Christians, have you ever been asked to attend a homosexual wedding?  How and why did you make the decision you did?  Dennis Prager said he has "law in the macro, and grace in the micro" – meaning, he's against homosexual marriage in the macro, but has compassion on the personal level.  He shared with me the story of an orthodox Jewish family that faced this situation, and their solution was this – both sides had to compromise – the faithful would attend a ceremony but there was be no blessing or asking of God to bless the union, and it wouldn't be called a marriage.  On those terms, they would attend.  If not, they wouldn't.  How have you handled it?  How will you handle it?

(4:52) Osteen Full. (Joel and Victoria Osteen are on Piers Morgan's show on CNN 10/4/2011. Previous clip is from Piers Morgan in 1/2011.)

• CNN Transcript (10/4/2011) Piers Morgan with Joel & Victoria Osteen.

(1:52) Osteen #1

MORGAN: Is homosexuality a sin, in your eyes? 

J. OSTEEN: Yes, I've always believed, Piers, the scriptures shows that it's a sin, but, you know, I'm not one of those that are out there to bash homosexuals and tell them that they're terrible people and all that.

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

MORGAN: So, I suppose the obvious question is -- we did that back in January, has your position changed at all after that? Because it raised a lot of headlines, a lot of controversy. Since then, more states have endorsed same-sex marriage. It's becoming much less of a prohibitive kind of issue than it used to be. What's your view now?

J. OSTEEN: You know, Piers, it really never changes because mine was -- mine's based out of the scripture. That's what I believe that the scripture says that -- that homosexuality is a sin. So, it -- you know, I believed it before and I still believe it now. Again, I would just reiterate what I said, I'm not after -- I'm not mad at anybody. I don't dislike anybody. But, you know, you know, respecting my faith and believing, you know, in -- in what the scripture says, that's the best way I can interpret it. 

MORGAN: But, I mean, shouldn't the scripture be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern age. I mean, we were talking before the break about the issue about eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, not everything in the scriptures, really, is, in my view, conducive to modern life. I mean, like everything else, doesn't it have to move with the times and isn't it down again to people like you to interpret it in a way that evolves when you're known as a very progressive preacher? 

J. OSTEEN: Sure. Well, we want to be progressive but sometimes -- sometimes I just, when I read it, I can't see how you would change that, just like you wouldn't, you know, change some other main things, you know, in the scripture. I just, I don't see how that, you know, if you don't have a basis of truth, and that's what I base mine off of, the scripture, everybody else doesn't and I don't fault them if they don't, but this is just the way I choose to -- to live my life and what I teach based out of the scripture. So, I don't think, you know, I think, you know, personally, 200 years from now the scripture is still going to say that.

(1:21) Osteen #2.

MORGAN: Yes, but the law of the land may not and it may not in your state and the law of the land is changing fast and, you know, your argument about executions was well, it's the law of the land in somewhere like Texas. What if Texas eventually, in a moment it's an unlikely place I would imagine to bring this in, but it may change with enough pressure, Texas brings in a law that same-sex marriage is permissible, how would you feel then if it's the law of the land?

J. OSTEEN: Well, you know what, I'm going to respect the law and I'm going to respect gay people like I do now, you know, have plenty of people that come to our church and friends, I would call, that are gay so I'm going to respect that. I think where it puts a difficult situation is me being a Christian pastor believing the scripture, you know, it would be against my faith to marry two gay people. 

MORGAN: You could never do that? 

J. OSTEEN: No, it would be against what I believe the scripture teaches and, so, that's where I think the rub comes in with people like myself. It's not that I'm against anybody or, you know, if people want to live together, that's up to them. But, my faith, when we say marriage, I mean, I think about it, Piers, and all through the Bible there are, you know, hundreds of marriages but none of them are shown as between, you know, the same sex. And, again, I'm not against anything but I just believe that's what the Bible teaches and that's how we've chosen to (INAUDIBLE). 

MORGAN: Joel, do you feel a bit uneasy? The last person I heard speaking like this was Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. He's the President of Iran, who says there are no gay people in Iran and it's a terrible sin and curse. 

(1:37) Osteen #3

MORGAN: I mean, Victoria, what -- what do you think of all this -- the gay marriage debate. I mean, could you ever imagine attending a gay marriage between two people who come to your church, for example, if they invited you? 

V. OSTEEN: Well, I think if it was that easy, that we would have figured it out by now but it's been overthrown, states go for it and then they overthrow it, so it's very difficult for …

MORGAN: But accepting an…

V. OSTEEN: ...people…

MORGAN: ...but accepting an invitation is easy. So, would you accept one or not? 

V. OSTEEN: Would I accept one? 

MORGAN: Two gay people who attend your church invite you to their wedding.

V. OSTEEN: Sure, I would go. 

MORGAN: You would? 

V. OSTEEN: Well, I don't -- you know, if I had time I would. 

MORGAN: Joel, would you go? 

J. OSTEEN: If they were friends of mine…

MORGAN: Yes. 

J. OSTEEN: ...and I respect them, I would certainly go. 

MORGAN: You would watch two people you think are sinners committing the ultimate sin. 

J. OSTEEN: Well, I'm looking at it, I don't think it's the ultimate sin, but I'm looking at it from another point of view of respect to that person and, you know, it's -- you know, it gets convoluted but I'm looking at it as respect to that person. 

MORGAN: Could you -- could you in your position actually actively encourage people to go through a same-sex marriage? Could you be seen to do -- could you be photographed at such an event? 

J. OSTEEN: Well, I would not…

MORGAN: Would that cause you problems. 

J. OSTEEN: Well, you know, there's -- it's such a hypothetical and I'm talking about…

MORGAN: Well, not really because you said lots of gay people go to your church so it might happen. 

J. OSTEEN: Well, I haven't been to many weddings lately to begin with and I'm talking about somebody that was, you know, dear to us. I'm not going to disrespect somebody that's dear to us and say, you know what, you're not good enough for us or something like that. That's the way that I would see it. Now, I'm not going to just run off and go attend, you know, certain marriages just to make a statement because that's not who I am and that's not what I stand for and, again, I don't look down on those people. 

(:26) 1- Osteen's View. (shorter clips)

MORGAN: What's your view now?

J. OSTEEN: You know, Piers, it really never changes because mine was -- mine's based out of the scripture. That's what I believe that the scripture says that -- that homosexuality is a sin. So, it -- you know, I believed it before and I still believe it now. Again, I would just reiterate what I said, I'm not after -- I'm not mad at anybody. I don't dislike anybody. But, you know, you know, respecting my faith and believing, you know, in -- in what the scripture says, that's the best way I can interpret it. 

(:53) 2- Modernize Scripture.

J. OSTEEN: Sure. Well, we want to be progressive but sometimes -- sometimes I just, when I read it, I can't see how you would change that, just like you wouldn't, you know, change some other main things, you know, in the scripture. I just, I don't see how that, you know, if you don't have a basis of truth, and that's what I base mine off of, the scripture, everybody else doesn't and I don't fault them if they don't, but this is just the way I choose to -- to live my life and what I teach based out of the scripture. So, I don't think, you know, I think, you know, personally, 200 years from now the scripture is still going to say that.

(:47) 3- Won't marry them.

MORGAN: how would you feel then if it's the law of the land?

J. OSTEEN: Well, you know what, I'm going to respect the law and I'm going to respect gay people like I do now, you know, have plenty of people that come to our church and friends, I would call, that are gay so I'm going to respect that. I think where it puts a difficult situation is me being a Christian pastor believing the scripture, you know, it would be against my faith to marry two gay people. 

MORGAN: You could never do that? 

J. OSTEEN: No, it would be against what I believe the scripture teaches and, so, that's where I think the rub comes in with people like myself. It's not that I'm against anybody or, you know, if people want to live together, that's up to them. But, my faith, when we say marriage, I mean, I think about it, Piers, and all through the Bible there are, you know, hundreds of marriages but none of them are shown as between, you know, the same sex. And, again, I'm not against anything but I just believe that's what the Bible teaches and that's how we've chosen to (INAUDIBLE). 

(:27) 4- Yes, I would attend.

MORGAN: Two gay people who attend your church invite you to their wedding.

V. OSTEEN: Sure, I would go. 

MORGAN: You would? 

V. OSTEEN: Well, I don't -- you know, if I had time I would. 

MORGAN: Joel, would you go? 

J. OSTEEN: If they were friends of mine…

MORGAN: Yes. 

J. OSTEEN: ...and I respect them, I would certainly go. 

MORGAN: You would watch two people you think are sinners committing the ultimate sin. 

J. OSTEEN: Well, I'm looking at it, I don't think it's the ultimate sin, but I'm looking at it from another point of view of respect to that person and, you know, it's -- you know, it gets convoluted but I'm looking at it as respect to that person. 

413-423 – Calls – 

423 – Win a signed copy of Dr. David Jeremiah's new book I Never Thought I'd See The Day: Culture at the Crossroads by registering at kkla.com, and catch David Jeremiah's Turning Point weekdays at 11am. 

428-438 – Calls – 

• Albert Mohler (10/6/2011) Dragged Kicking and Screaming into the Modern Age? Lessons from Piers Morgan's Interview with Joel Osteen.

// In other words, Joel Osteen sees homosexuality as a sin and same-sex marriage to be contrary to God's will. He cannot perform same-sex marriage ceremonies or endorse same-sex marriage, because he is bound by Scripture. On the other hand, he can attend a same-sex ceremony, if the participants are friends, and thus endorse by his presence the credibility of the ceremony itself and join in the celebration of what he believes, or says he believes, is sin.

This is beyond mere incoherence. It is moral and theological nonsense. More than that, it is a massive statement of ministerial malpractice. Piers Morgan had the sense to see that much. You cannot celebrate what you say you know to be sin. You cannot honestly say that same-sex marriage defies the law of God, and then join in the celebration of that ceremony.

Joel Osteen should know better, but you can add that to the things that someone like Joel Osteen should know, if indeed he is to present himself as a Christian preacher and leader.

The larger problem is that many evangelical Christians would follow Joel Osteen's logic without a second thought, or without even what the psychologists would describe as "cognitive dissonance." They say they believe that homosexuality is a sin, and that same-sex marriage is contrary to God's will. But they allow personal relationships and social pressure to override their (evidently) lightly-held convictions.

The hypothetical case Piers Morgan invented for his interview with Joel and Victoria Osteen is precisely the reality many American Christians will face — or have already faced — with the legalization of same-sex marriage. Unless convictions are deeply held, they will melt away in the face of cultural pressure. //

443-452 – Calls – Isn't it key to determine what people are intending the significance of the event to be?  Is the gay couple expecting God to actually bless the union?  Which god?  By attending, what are you intending to say?  By your attendance, what will others think you are intending?  Doesn't it say far more by not going than by going?  Isn't your credibility undermined by going?

458-508 – Chai Ling, was at one time the most-wanted woman in China for her role as the student commander-in-chief of the Tiananmen Square uprising and eventual massacre on June 4, 1989.  Today, she is a Nobel Peace Prize Nominee, and the founder of a ministry called All Girls Allowed (allgirlsallowed.org) which exposes the gendercide of China's one-child policy – something she knows all too well, having undergone forced abortion at the hand of the Chinese government four times!  She shares her story in a book that came out this week – but is banned in China – about her role in the rise of the pro-democracy movement in China, escaping to America in 1990, and her eventual conversion from communism to Christianity.  After coming to America, she earned an M.L.A. in Public Affairs from Princeton, and then an MBA from Harvard Business School.  She's married to Bob Maginn, and they enjoy three daughters.  The book is entitled A Heart For Freedom: The Remarkable Journey of a Young Dissident, Her Daring Escape, and Her Quest to Free China's Daughters (heartforfreedom.com).

512-523 – Chai Ling,

TH 523 – Don Rohde @ Galpin Ford (818) 262-2092 (galpin.comFor the past 39 years, Don's been sales manager at Galpin, the #1 volume Ford dealer in the world for the past 21 years.

528-539 – Chai Ling,

523 – Pastors and Church Leaders!  Learn to increase the impact of your church at our IMPACT 2011 CONFERENCE coming up November 1st at APU, with guest speakers Jim Reeves, Dudley Rutherford, Steve Mays and J.P. Jones.  It's free, but you must pre-register at kkla.com.

544-554 – Chai Ling,

558-608 – Let's return to the Osteen, going to a gay wedding, thing.  

612-623 – 

623 – Phillip De Courcy's radio program Know the Truth wants to invite you to their fall concert to hear the amazing hymn of Keith and Kristyn Getty next Sunday, October 16th at Kindred Community Church.  For info and tickets go to kkla.com.

628-639 – 

639 – Take a stand for Christ at the Line In The Sand event on Saturday, November 11th, at the Rose Bowl from 11am-9pm.  It's free, but pre-register at kkla.com.

644-654 – 

• NRO Editors (10/6/2011) Truth in Budgeting.

• James Woolsey & Seth Leibsohn (NRO, 10/6/2011) Zuhdi Jasser's Counter-Jihad: The administration refuses to utilize a strong opponent of radical Islam.

• Alex Howe (Business Insider, 10/4/2011) The Truth About George Soros' Radical Vision To Remake The Entire World.

(1:15) Steve Jobs. (Greg Gutfeld, one of the hosts on Fox New's "The Five" gives an awesome commentary on the life of Steve Jobs. 10/6/2011.)

• The Washington Post (10/4/2011) For young evangelicals, can true love wait? 

• The Telegraph (10/6/2011) Steve Jobs: adopted child who never met his biological father.